S3:E5 - Mindset, wellbeing and burnout - taking care of your mental health as a marketer

Updated: Jul 27

SS: Hello folks, welcome back to the Marketing Mindset Club. Today we are talking to Matthew Rochford. Matthew is an executive coach working with award-winning entrepreneurs, directors, senior managers in a whole range of industries including venture capital, fashion, food, property development, health recruitment, film, TV and music so a really broad range of industry expertise there.

He's been supporting coaching advising and providing counsel to people since the late 90s, as a business and marketing consultant, executive coach and martial arts trainer, which I definitely am going to ask him about in a second. Being able to help and support other people to be more insightful successful, responsible and fulfilled has always been a passion of his. So on the show today we are talking about mindset, which I believe is such a big part of being an effective marketer, and after all, that's why I call the show the Marketing Mindset Club. So, welcome to the show, Matthew.

MR: Thank you for having me. It's really great to be here.

SS: I'm really excited to have this conversation because up until now we've been very marketing focused on the show, so fulfilling the other half of our brief is going to be very exciting. So, yeah, Tell us a bit about your background and how you got to where you are today.

MR: Wow, okay well I'm 51 now so it's gonna take a long time. So, I'll do the edited version. So, I was born in Scotland, and I was born into a multiracial family actually so my mother was from India and my dad was from England, and I was brought up in Scotland, and that gave me the perspective that I have. And it made me appreciate people from different backgrounds and their place and their value. And after finishing school I went to university, and I studied politics and history at Newcastle. And you know what I was kind of interested in that for a while, and I kind of got much more interested in music and having a good time, to be honest. But you know I did my degree, and I came out of that and didn't really have a clue what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. My mum, she suggested that I went into journalism because that was quite a common career path for people with politics and history degrees. And that didn't really interest me, and I bumped into somebody, became friends with someone, who was a Tai Chi teacher and a martial artist and he done kung fu. And I started going to his classes as a young man and I learned Tai Chi, I learned Tai Chi as a meditation and also as a martial art. And after several years I decided that I wanted to be a teacher so I actually studied to be a Tai Chi teacher, for six years, actually, I studied to be to get my teaching qualification. And I set up a Mai Tai Chi school in Devon, in the late 90s. And that went really well and I started to train teachers so I train people how to be, you know, how to how to become a qualified teacher themselves. And during that process when I was running that Tai Chi school as well as teaching a lot of Tai Chi and meeting some amazing people and really helping people with their well being, with a focus, with psychological health. I also got really interested in marketing and how to sort of get the benefits of something across. And I happen to meet someone on one of my Tai Chi courses, who, I guess he was one of the pioneers in digital marketing in the UK. And he's called Martin Brooks, and he set up some quite well-known agencies, one was called Agency Republic, which was quite a, you know, in the late 90s they're one of the first sort of big digital marketing agencies. So I became friends with him and he gave me lots of ideas actually. So through running the Tai Chi school and, and reading and my association with Martin, I kind of got quite good at marketing, actually, and I also like to write so I've always had an interest in writing but I wrote a book on Tai Chi. So I kind of knew how to write, and, and people started asking me to help them with their businesses from a marketing perspective. And we'd sort of created the first Tai Chi brand in the UK at the time which is called Tai Chi Nation. This was about, I guess it was about 2007. And, anyway, so other people started asking me about, you know their organizations, you know, helping them with their branding. And that just gave me the idea that I could create an agency, a small digital marketing agency. And for a while, run it alongside what I was doing with the Tai Chi organisation, which by that point had grown and we had more directors involved so I was kind of able to do both for a while. And I found that quite exciting. We had some really interesting clients. We work with some quite well-known snack companies and we wrote some eco-product companies that are really great.

And that was great. That was really good. And that was about that time that I started to have coaching myself. So I had coaching specifically on developing leadership skills and I had that for about three years, and it made a massive difference to how I engaged with being a consultant, and, and being a director of my own organisation so that was really quite pivotal, and I've had an interest in sort of meditation and Eastern philosophies for a long time. Somehow the coaching kind of brought a lot of things together for me. And I spoke to my coach and I said, you know what I think I want to be a coach, and he said the first thing he said to me that he said, you could do standing on your head and I was quite surprised about. Anyway, it was nice that he said that. So went did a course and qualified to be a coach. And that was about four years ago now. So I was just able to kind of, I've had kind of like three careers I've had my Tai Chi career, I've had my marketing career and I'm now in my coaching career. So I consider myself very fortunate and but it's also given me a little bit of an insight into how to reinvent yourself. And a lot of my clients often have that chance, you know, at that stage in their life that maybe got a career change, maybe they're changing role or maybe they're just getting out of their industry and doing something completely different. And that's through my own experience I understand how that's quite scary. So, yeah, there's, there's a lot of questions that come up at that point. So, anyway, so a few years ago I started my coaching business, and here I am speaking to you.

SS: That's the really exciting journey and there's so much there that I want to talk about, and I'm a little bit like a kid in a candy store trying to decide which questions to pick first

MR: It always been easy that's for sure.

SS: Yeah, that's the thing that it sounds like there have been so many opportunities but so many challenges as well I mean, it's no mean feat to start an agency on your own, you know, having come from a successful business anyway. What was that experience like moving from the Tai Chi business into running digital marketing at the same time and growing that enterprise?

MR: Yeah, in some ways it was relatively seamless. I think the hard thing was the, was how to leave the title the organisation that had set up. That was actually quite challenging. And that felt quite natural to move into marketing and I was helped by, you know quite a lot of other people to do that, and I had a small but brilliant team. I had three people in my team when we work together, delivering for different clients I mean we're talking a pretty tiny agency, but doing really, really interesting work and we did all sorts of stuff we did everything from branding to websites to photography to videos to like running competitions for clients. Following their journey and kind of reflecting that in the content. You know, it's all about content - a large part of it is about content. And I think the challenging thing for me was to kind of manage that workload and as you all know in marketing, the details are so important, and that was pretty challenging and you know it's quite a very stressful industry to work in marketing.

SS: Did you find that that was a stark difference coming from running the Tai Chi business?

MR: Yes and no. I think the thing about teaching Tai Chi meant at one point out is like teaching like 12/14 classes a week, and working weekends. Always, and you know, you'd always get quite a long break in the summer often, which was great, but the rest of the time is pretty full-on. But I think the advantage is that when you teach in Tai Chi, you also get the benefits of it. Yeah, when you're doing marketing, you kind of, you're just working on it. And so I think that was the big difference

SS: Was that a bit of an upheaval for you, did you have to be more proactive about your wellbeing, because you weren't getting the benefit from those classes?

MR: Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I was still doing timesheet myself, and still doing meditation. But it is, you know, it's quite relentless, isn't it, marketing, advertising world. You know, even if you just even if you want to run a tiny agency is still going to be pretty full-on. So yeah, you kind of had I think what I learned from that was how to pace myself and how to delegate and when to not delegate actually. Yeah it was it was a big change, actually. Thinking back, it was a big change - it was also really exciting. We got to do some really amazing things like, do these really fun videos. So because it was hardly any help with you know a very small team, we kind of had to learn to do everything. And I worked with a brilliant videographer and editor, which, you know, it's great to have his expertise on board.

SS: So you're doing a sort of a full-service offering between you and your three members of staff. Were you reaching out for freelancers and coordinating that as well.

MR: Yeah so and for everyone that worked for me was freelancing. We didn't employ anyone, not at that stage - we could have done, but you know there are advantages and disadvantages of both. So, I mean it grew quite organically, I mean you'll know what it's like you kind of, you work with the client and then you want to think of ways that you can help them more. So, we're kind of always doing that and I think the disadvantage of what I was doing then was that we were to a certain degree we're putting all our eggs in one basket, and I think that's the risk isn't in the marketing world is that you lose a big client - is very, you know me, you have to be really agile because, you know, you lose one client and that could be, I don't know, 60% of revenue in a small marketing agency. And being based in the South West is challenging because if you're in the South East, the way people view marketing I think is different. And, you know, there are exceptions of course, but I think generally, there's maybe a reluctance to invest. I mean this is back in 2010 onwards really 2010 to 2015. Where actually marketing since then it's got more challenging, actually, I think it's got more expensive to find customers, you know, there was noisy then it's even more noisy now.

SS: I think that's really important to highlight is that there is so much noise out there, and to be an effective marketer you have to both be aware of it but also not let it affect you. I think it's very easy to get overwhelmed and to feel a sense of stress, because of all the information and all the potential routes out there. But, you know, back in, back in 2010 when, when you are working on this did you how did you manage that the sort of the upheavals and the stress levels of running a small agency.

MR: Um, what I learned from Tai Chi and meditation is having a reset button. So that's why I call it - it's the ability to reset your system if you like. Because it's relentless and through meditation and Tai Chi, I was able to do that and I think that kept me sane. It helped with my own sort of overall energy is still difficult. it just gives you a tool to use. And I still value that I try and do something every day. When usually successful in doing something every day to help me with that because our systems, our mind, our body etc they kind of re-establish balance on that on their own. All we need to do is kind of allow it, you know, source, meditation is great because it allows your systems to rebalance itself. And then you can kind of go again with a different approach or renewed energy. And, and I think it's very it's very easy to burn out, isn't it, I think that's the other thing - I didn't burn out but I think I became aware that I could probably be quite close to that. And people do burnout I think it's quite, you know, in the corporate sector, well in any, in any sector, it's quite common to have that experience of burnout, and I think that's what I think is very avoidable. And also you can recover from that, but it can quite hard to take a long time to recover from that.

SS: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely speak from experience on that on that part I have been there and full burnout, and for people who've never been there, it's very hard to understand that it's not just being a bit tired or being a bit exhausted, it is the complete emptiness of energy, of enthusiasm, of motivation, of desire for anything really and to recover from that, there is nothing you can do other than stop. You know you, whatever techniques and tools that you have at your disposal - I don't think you can work through burnout I don't know what your opinion of that is.

MR: Yeah, I think you're right, I think you have to stop and give yourself the opportunity to recover your to recharge your batteries at quite a deep level.

SS: Yeah, I think there's going to be more and more people, especially in light of how difficult the last 12 months have been, who are going to be experiencing burnout shortly. I know we haven't specifically planned to talk about burnout, but I'm wondering since we're here whether you have any advice for folks who feel like they might be approaching that mental state.

MR: I think the thing. Yeah, I think the big thing is to separate what's happening in you from what's happening all that because I firmly believe this, that stress is universal - everyone experiences stress at the level of stress. It's a response to triggers, there's no doubt about that. But it's also, it's how we, it's how we deal with that and makes all the difference. So, it's definitely true that we're gonna get challenged and we're gonna get stressorss, but how we relate to how we respond to that how we react that will dictate whether that level of stress becomes intolerable or not. And you know, we all, we're all human, we all need to go through things. I think that if you can get a kind of handle on your own psychological state, if you can get an understanding of that, then you can diffuse a lot of that stress. And that's been my experience but it's been the experience of my clients is that they've been able to do that, I've kind of helped them to understand how they can do that for themselves.

SS: Yeah I think that's a really nice way of us moving on to talking about your coaching, and you know, how do you help somebody through a problem that they're having, or even just taking it back and so how do you address the mindset issue of your practice.

MR: Yeah, It's a good question insurmountable problems - that appear insurmountable. I find absolutely fascinating. I think that's where the magic happens. And that's where mindset, always can come in and help. So, when we, when we're like right up against it if a face is right up against a problem that's right yeah faces, and we're trying desperately to solve the problem, to you know to really kind of, I don't know, like, almost like force our way through it. Then, it almost certainly won't work. We need to take a step back and get perspective and find ways of accessing that because that is a mind state, the perspective. And then, the insurmountable problem will appear differently. Yeah, so, how we see something is happening in our mindset, so our mind is kind of creating what we're seeing, yeah, getting a bit woo-woo about it but it's a bit like we're in a film projector, and we're projecting things out there, rather than we're watching the cinema and where everything's happening to us. It's much more active than that. So, I mean it's very provable as to our own experience. So for example, say you've got a really pressing issue or a difficult thing to get through, and you step away from it from for a moment, you forget about you go and do something else go walk the dog or whatever, that space allows the power of insight to happen. It allows the kind of the hidden mechanics of the mind to work. And when we come back to it, or actually when we're doing that other activity, we'll probably have like a little breakthrough or another little insight or big insight or big breakthrough. And it's recognising those moments that is really key to empowering yourself to just kind of get with there quicker to kind of get to the solutions quicker to enjoy the journey more to, to not be overwhelmingly stressed out by something, because you know you've got the ability to see your way through, you might not see it now but you can. And, I mean there's been amazing results with this kind of approach. You know, just not just with the people I've been working with but with people that taught me how to do this, you know, and so people like Ken Manning, people like Robin Charbit, Sandra Krot. They've been doing it in the States for years, this kind of approach and they've had like ridiculously amazing outcomes with all sorts of companies, they're so mindset. I mean it's not just about positive thinking because positive thinking can be pretty useless, actually. If it's just a layer another layer of thinking on top of the stuff you haven't really gotten to the bottom of, or you know just willing, these thoughts. When actually you fundamentally don't believe them. Yeah, it's not going to work. So it's like finding a way of letting go to allow new thinking to emerge, because that's the process of change. That's how we change that's how people in marketing come up with new ideas - that creative process and in marketing, it's so, I mean there's a lot of pressure on you when you work in marketing to come up with new ideas or new and interesting ways to engage be engaged to you know to convey the benefits of something, all that, I mean it's, it's really, it's really hard.

SS: Yeah absolutely, I think. Sorry, go on.

MR: No, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be really hard it can be easier.

SS: Yeah the way that you phrase that about letting go of how you're currently thinking about it in order to allow a new perspective in, I think, is, is just such a, such a visualisation of a lightbulb just going off in my brain hearing you say that because it absolutely is that - you can't solve a creative issue by going at it from the same direction so you've got this, this, this perspective shift that you need to undertake. It's a little bit like looking at the Rubik's Cube from another face, and you'll see a completely different colour.

MR: Right.

SS: Which kind of leads me on to thinking about what other characteristics of mindset make a good marketer, and you know one thought I have on that is about curiosity. You have to be curious in order to discover new things. Now, what's your perspective on that?

MR: Yeah, I think, I think that's brilliant. I think that other aspects or qualities I think that you can connect with are kind of how do you get into the flow I think is really interesting. So, how do you access stuff flow, where I don't know everything is kind of, nothing's a problem, and you can see solutions really easily and readily you can see, creative solutions really readily. So it's been a lot written about flow states, and I think that there's a, there's a, there's a big thing in there for more people working in marketing because if you're in a flow state you can kind of access all that. Be curious you can be the kind of owns like a child, like, you know, if you can immerse yourself in something, think that's good I think confidence is hugely important, not just the confidence that comes from outside but the confidence that it really comes from getting out of your own way. The confidence that comes from inside and quite a deep place, to know that that's there. I think is a big thing for people in marketing. So you can be confident with the client, you can be confident with your team, and whichever way you're facing you can be confident, like I like that. I like working on that kind of issue with people in marketing. People hire people, people hire you in marketing because you're creative actually, and you can get results and you're able to be engaging, and you can be, you can become the sort of person that's always coming up with solutions, is unfazed by challenges, has got a good rapport, can be engaging that empathetic, I think empathy is hugely important in marketing, noteveryone will agree, But I think and obviously you do too.

SS: Yeah I think if, if nothing else, you have to emphasise with your customers and your prospects and you have to empathise with your team and the people within the company, because in my experience marketers are inevitably the glue that holds the sales team, the operations team, and the C suite together in terms of that information flow - we're quite often conduits for how information will flow around the business by our very nature we, I think, need to be curious because we need to, to, you know to look under all the stones, and to see, you know the true picture of what's going on because that helps us be better marketers. But there was a thought I was having there about self worth, because I know what you were saying about inner confidence, I think it's quite dangerous to attach your self worth to your success in your career, because you as a person, are not always in fact probably rarely ever in full control of all the circumstances that will determine your success. Do you find your you're working with people who, who have that sort of self worth, attachment to their work?

MR: Bit of both, I think that you're right, I think that the confidence that isn't so attached to achievements, obvious achievements is better confidence, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive, I think that your successes are there to be celebrated. But the real confidence is, is kind of coming from somewhere else. Self-worth comes from your belief in yourself, and your recognition of your qualities, and I think it's very closely related to how confident you feel on that day as well you know. I have a friend called Julian Freeman, who's a filmmaker, and he said this really great thing - "He said when my confidence is high, my stock is high" and I was really good because I know how true that was because you have self-worth and you have confidence. But all of these things kind of was a little bit mysteriously they kind of exist in the zone of being in the present, and being in a place where confidence isn't even an issue, it's just there, you don't have to think it into existence, it's just there for you. And I like that- helping people to recognise that, because the narrative is just a narrative and the narrative will tell you things about your self-worth and tell you things about your confidence and all that. But actually, it's not really that it's not the truth, it's just some thoughts. And we might invest energy in those thoughts, actually, they're not going to be helping us, they're just going to be making it harder. That are creating this story that basically gets in our way because we have all these qualities when we're present - we're not overthinking things, we're being intuitive or whatever, it's learning to access that in a very direct way is so significant for self-worth and confidence, much more than what you can tell yourself. I mean that you still need you to know still good to tell yourself good things. But you know like when you've, I don't know when you've had a brilliant experience doing something like, say you've gone for a bike ride, and you just kind of in the zone, and you just feel great. You know, your narrative doesn't play a big part in it. But when you are having a difficult day your narrative is probably playing a much bigger role - telling you know when you're down it's very easy for the stories, to kind of emerge that you know you're no good or whatever, that kind of stuff.

SS: Do you think a physical intervention like going for a walk or a bike ride is a good way of interrupting that narrative in a bad day.

MR: I think it can definitely help. But the shift still has to happen in your mind. And I think it will help definitely but you still have to allow that change to happen you have to recognise the nature of thought. We think that actually thought is just thought, isn't it. You know it's not made of concrete, it's not. But we relate to it sometimes as if it is, we relate to it as if it's some sort of permanent phenomena and it isn't at all, just thoughts.

SS: So having that ability to recognise the thought and observe it, and not attach your confidence to it or your self-worth to it. It can be a really powerful tool then.

MR: Yeah, I think it's about gaining the insight into how thinking affects us and how the mind works. When we, when we recognise how insight how the power of insight works, then that is kind of where things can change. And you can get yourself out of the negative states much quicker. It's very difficult to think your way out of a negative state. I mean you can do it. I guess what I'm saying is that when you have insight into the thoughts that are happening or unhelpful, then you can let them go, instantaneously almost. You say, okay, that's, that's that thinking okay I know where that's going. I'm just gonna, yeah I'm not investing in that.

SS: Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Have you got any examples you could share with us anonymously, of course, of marketers you've coached and the kind of challenges that you've helped them overcome.

MR: Sure. Yeah, so I've been working with a client, and they have really pivoted their business I know it's an overused word, but in this case, it's absolutely appropriate. So, how they've completely changed their business model. And that has been quite challenging, and how their whole approach to their own narrative is completely changed. So that they've enabled themselves to make the changes quite quickly. Actually very quickly. And that's now, so that the new concepts are proving themselves now. Because him, that person as the business owner had the main role. And the main role in that change has been how that person thinks, or rather how they can access the power of insight, how they can access real creative really great creative thinking, to come up with solutions because they've gone off the map. And that is kind of, I find that incredibly exciting when a client is able to do that. And everyone's able to do that. But that to me is also genuine innovation, they're not copying anyone that actually - Oh this is a new model. Okay, maybe it's been influenced by other people and other people's models but it's not the same. And in marketing, you know you can do the kind of bread and butter marketing can't you - you can do the content you could do the SEO, you can do the advertising, all of that, you can do it really well. And you can, you know you can make a living from that accordingly. But that's kind of doing stuff that everyone else is doing, and I think it's pretty certain it's getting harder. I would say these new models and new models come from new mindsets, you think, fresh thinking.

SS: So would you say in that example, the biggest change for this person has. So they've been able to understand their thoughts more they've got more insight into how they think and then they've used that to almost like get out of their own way?

MR: 100% Yeah. Yeah, and to see how they can do that quicker. Whereas like maybe before we take in a while. I didn't like days to kind of get out of that kind of stuck thinking, and now it's taking minutes.

SS: That's incredible. I can imagine, you know, for a marketer who is able to go through this transformation process the, the ability to think differently, so quickly, would be huge, especially if you're in a business in a small team, or, you know, maybe you're a solo marketer or on your own as a freelancer, being able to have a new direction or, you know, a new approach to things, is game-changing.

MR: Yes, and I've been lucky because the people that have coached me that's where they've been coming from. So they're always pushing me to do the same thing. And that, that is, you know, that is what changes everything.

SS: So if somebody listening to the podcast wants to be more, take a more active role in their mindset and their mental well being, their approach to thinking, where would you recommend that they start?

MR: Well I'm a great believer in meditation and I think that's hugely important. And, you know there are like millions of meditation centres. Many running online stuff. So like Google that and obviously there's the Apps as well like Headspace and Calm. Theare very, very useful, people. The other thing is that I, would recommend this book Invisible Power so "Invisible Power - Insight Principles at Work" I love this book is so important, it kind of joined a lot of things up for me. So it's Invisible Power - Insight Principles at Work, everyone's hidden in a capacity. And it's written by Ken Manning. Robin Charvet and Sandra Krot. And so just Google invisible power you can get it on Amazon. And it's designed for busy people, I think it's very good people in marketing, and you can dip in and out of it you don't have to read the whole thing at once and this summarises things really well as you go. So that's a really good one. And you know a lot of people do yoga and tai chi and go, you know, just, it's about balance, isn't it, you know. If you're running a marketing agency you don't want to be sitting in front of a screen for eight hours a day. You want to be breaking up. And you know fundamentally believe that it's just not very good for you to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day for lots of reasons, you know, I mean, it's just common sense and it's all well researched. So to break up, and to not think you just have to. You know, if it's your business it's assigned to you how you run it. And your it's your life.

SS: I think as much as the last 12 months have been a gigantic upheaval for a lot of people, they have actually paved the way for so many new models of business and ways of doing things. I think for most of us marketers, I think we're incredibly lucky because our job by its very nature is digital, we can be online, anywhere, almost any time. And so you've got the flexibility to manage your, your health, in between that, I think, from my own experience, I, I've worked in businesses where the expectation is that you are in front of your screen from nine to five, and you know, I think that sort of thinking is hopefully on its way out, because it's not healthy for people, it's also not productive. You know the other thought I had is being productive, doesn't equate to hours spent in front of the screen.

MR: Yeah, I totally agree. I remember hearing a story. A friend of mine, when she Chris waters. He told me about a company I think it was New Zealand, Australia, and they had this sales guy, the sales guy and he was quite miserable in the team. And they asked him, How many days a week he wanted to work, and he was working five days, and he said, he said two and a half. They said, okay. And he was more productive on those two and a half days a week, he was doing five days a week.

SS: Yeah, I think, I think the nine to five, five days a week model is, you know hopefully about to be in our past because our lives just don't work that way anymore. It doesn't work for such a majority of people now, I think, I think, for us as marketers, we've got an opportunity to pave that way as well because, like I said the very nature, our job allows us to do that and there will be some professions where, you know, it's kind of harder to implement a change of working routine. But I think if you're a marketer who has the potential to do your job anywhere at any time, you should definitely be trying to make use of that for your own well being.

MR: Yeah, definitely. Friends of mine that work in marketing. I have a friend Julian who - she runs Leftfield which is a graphic design agency. She's so good at this. She's so good at just going for amazing walks swimming in the river, and not being glued to a screen. And, yeah, kind of really respect that. And yeah, we have that, you know, in the marketing world you have that flexibility you can go and go and go to Bali if you want, can you, your graphic designer. He used to work from Bali. And yeah, I think I think that is a massive advantage, and I think that most marketing. I would imagine I don't know who listens to the podcast but it's mainly solo entrepreneurs or its agencies.

SS: It's a real mix.

MR: Great. You as a solo entrepreneur you have many incredible opportunities but one of them is that you can be very agile, obviously be very project-focused, and take time out take whatever if you when you can afford it. Go live in Thailand for three months, you know, why not.

SS: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

MR: When obviously when we can actually travel.

SS: When we were allowed out of our homes again. Gosh, I'm so ready for that. So, if someone listening to the podcast has been inspired to talk to you about mindset coaching, can you give us an idea of how that process works.

MR: Sure, so people can just email me or check out my website - just reach out. MatthewRochford.co.uk, or just Matthew(at)MatthewRochford.co.uk. And the first thing that I offer is, I call it a discovery session, which is really just about getting to know each other, and seeing if it's likely that there's going to be a good match. And that is just something I do for free - I don't charge for that because it's such a relationship of high trust that you have to really be certain that you're working with the right coach. And it also gives me an opportunity to listen really quite carefully to the potential client, just to kind of get a sense of who they are and where they're at now belie where you did in a way it's like finding out how they've got, how they, the journey, what's important to them what their values are, and that usually lasts for an hour and a half, sometimes it's more like may be up to two hours. So that enables them to make an informed decision. Because that's what both parties want. And there are many coaches out there. So you know you have to find the right one for you. And then after that, then normally, there would be like a six-month process of when the coaching (sometimes 12 months). It depends, say, somebody's got a real clear goal that is emerging. That's probably going to be 12 months and we'll work 12 months. Anyway, six or 12 months, doesn't really matter whatever, is most appropriate and then I kind of design the programme around them. And we, we work on certain things, certain goals, qualitative and quantitative. And we have a process where the coaching sessions usually run for two hours, so they're quite long. But I think that I mean they only once a month, so we go quite deep, and I think it's incredible this really transformative to work like this. So it's two hours and months for say six months or 12 months, but then I'm completely on board with the client, so if they want to contact me and have a phone call or whatever, then that's part of the coaching programme. So in between the session. So the cornerstone are the sessions, then there's that ability to reach out at any time. And then there's the coaching journey is documented. So I document that coaching journey, capture the key insights. And the client is completely part of that they can edit it, why do they can change what I do. That's fine, but it just helps to kind of capture that process of change, accountability, key and size goals when they're like super clear. All of that - resources that we might put into that document. So that's how I like to work and. And that is the process and the process is a process of change and a process of transformation. And, you know change is difficult sometimes, and that's where coaching comes into its element. And it's a vehicle for you to get from A to B in a way that you probably well you might be able to do that on your own, not saying you can't, but if you have an ally, and it's much easier. It's much more. I would say it's, it's more transformative and it's more, it's accelerated actually.

SS: Somebody is still considering what goal that might be. Would you recommend this, they get clear on that before they get in touch with you or is that something that you can work through with folks?

MR: Yeah, that's a really good question because, sometimes, someone's really super clear about a goal, but I always challenge that bit because I want to know if that is the goal. And some people just know that some change, they want some sort of change to happen. And they might have a sign, they might have a goal in mind but maybe that isn't the real goal. So, the real goal might be quite different, and it usually comes out quite quickly for them. And I think that's the skill of the coach, certainly with my coaches about the questions that they ask, how you can be challenging but supportive, and also help to see from a different perspective, sort of wondering questions are really powerful. So they're not. They encourage, they encourage you to come up with the answer. Because we might have a goal of, I don't know just randomly we might have a goal of getting a bigger house, but that's not really going to be the goal, the goal is going to be something else, it's about how we want to feel. Yeah. The house isn't gonna make you feel anything in particular, not long term anyway. Okay, you can enjoy a bigger house, you might have a practical reason for having a bigger house and you might just want to have a big house fine. It's not going to make you feel the same way all the time for very long. It's so it doesn't really life doesn't really work like that does it.

SS: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. So you've already given you your website and your email address on or I'm going to put this up on the Marketing Mindset Club website as well so anyone who's looking for those links and a link to the book. Just a last point if there was, was one piece of advice you could give to a marketer listening to the show today, what would that be,

MR: I think it's to listen to your gut instinct or your intuition. If you do want to make a change, and actually just for general decision making to the to hell, you made the right decisions that are good for you and for your business because those two things that are intimately intertwined.

SS: Fantastic. Well, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, Matthew, thank you so much for being here.

MR: Wonderful to speak with you.

SS: Amazing. Oh, thanks, thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.

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